tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post4434517348272969132..comments2023-12-21T06:35:36.624-05:00Comments on Recursivity: My Scalia ExperienceUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-16845275608722421082016-02-19T16:53:57.374-05:002016-02-19T16:53:57.374-05:00A number of politicians running for higher office ...A number of politicians running for higher office (well, every single Republican vying for the presidential nomination) have been demonstrating that their memories are extremely unreliable and as malleable as public opinion requires. Fortunately in many cases, there are transcripts and videos to set the record straight.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07891989201161664914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-59546255784418870102016-02-16T17:50:07.760-05:002016-02-16T17:50:07.760-05:00"We know that human memory is extremely malle..."<i>We know that human memory is extremely malleable and unreliable, even just a few years after major events."</i><br /><br />Yet some are willing to give credence to textual representations that were recorded several generations after they "allegedly" occurred. William Spearshakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09354659259971103985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-21184135208762046442016-02-16T06:49:59.137-05:002016-02-16T06:49:59.137-05:00Oh, and I don't entirely believe you are just ...Oh, and I don't entirely believe you are just interested in what makes a good witness. I have a pretty good idea what your real goal is, and it's not really parallel. <br /><br />My experiences are mundane (a baseball game, a Supreme Court justice refuses to answer a question), whereas the events depicted in the synoptic gospels are without parallel in human history. Even if one accepts the claim that there were large numbers of witnesses to those events (and I don't), surely their exceptionality demands a <i>much</i> higher standard of proof than the things I report. Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-81930331306478619702016-02-16T06:13:24.685-05:002016-02-16T06:13:24.685-05:00It's like asking why is someone a good mathema...It's like asking why is someone a good mathematician. I don't think we know enough about the brain to know why people have the exceptional intellectual abilities they possess. So while I think your question is a good one, I doubt we have the tools to answer it currently.Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-1594912768759505692016-02-15T23:31:45.610-05:002016-02-15T23:31:45.610-05:00I'm being opaque. I'll try again. My openi...I'm being opaque. I'll try again. My opening quotes were from you (as you noted), in the context of calling into question certain historical claims on the basis that memory is fallible. Your comments are quite general: "Humans are just not good reporters of events that they witness".<br /><br />You've also claimed - implicitly about Scalia and explicitly in these comments - that you are a good reporter of events that you witnessed several decades ago (even if, in cases like Scalia, you do not remember all the details.)<br /><br />Now, given that you are a human, you are claiming to be an exception to the general trend. Why? What makes a human being a good reporter? Under what circumstances? And if good human reporters exist, then simply saying that "human memory is extremely unreliable" is not a sufficient reason to doubt a witness. Once we know what makes a good reporter, we can ask: Is this witness, in these circumstances, a good reporter?lukebarneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03245704613008522157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-47509831458771936132016-02-15T20:25:15.672-05:002016-02-15T20:25:15.672-05:00Oh, and the baseball memory was not just about num...Oh, and the baseball memory was not just about numbers; it also included things like names of players: Richie Allen, who hit a very long home run. And Tony Gonzalez, who won the game in the bottom of the 10th with another.<br /><br />By the way, if you think mathematicians are better with remembering numbers, you haven't met many mathematicians. Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-47086670157468423732016-02-15T20:20:44.772-05:002016-02-15T20:20:44.772-05:00I don't really know why you are playing this g...I don't really know why you are playing this game. I was trying to answer honestly. You can take my recollection or leave it as you like.<br /><br />I know I've been wrong about some memories, and I try to take this into account when I evaluate the strength of my own belief.<br /><br />On other data point: I attend a trivia contest weekly with a group of friends. In team trivia it's not just what you know, it's also how well you can evaluate your confidence in your own knowledge, so as to know when to insist on overruling an answer of others. Other people on my team know more about some topics, but I seem to be better in estimating the degree of confidence in the answers. So when I overrule others, I seem to be more likely to be correct.Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-437703152220418742016-02-15T20:05:14.534-05:002016-02-15T20:05:14.534-05:00Even if *you* are justified in believing your own ...Even if *you* are justified in believing your own recollections based on their strength, should I believe them just because you *say* that they are strong? False memories can be held very strongly by those who have them.<br /><br />Indeed, the evidence for a false memory is not insubstantial. Note the vagueness of the phrase "all huffy", a emotional description which could have easily been overlaid on Scalia's comments by the intervening three decades of your frustration with American conservatives. The evidence of the baseball game is similarly inconclusive. You are a mathematician, and so could be expected to remember details about numbers in games - innings, balls, strikes, home runs etc are all numbers. The memory of Scalia, on the other hand, is an impression of his emotional response. Furthermore, you have only one data point to substantiate your claim that strong memory -> correct memory, and that data point relies on your memory of checking the newspaper.<br /><br />Obviously, I've moved decisively into smart-arse territory at this point. I have no reason to doubt your honesty, in general or in this particular case. My comments are intended as satire: they *aren't* good reasons to doubt your account. I'm probing the limits of playing the "memory is unreliable" card. What we really need to understand is: When is memory reliable? When should witnesses be believed? I'm trying to read a bit about this myself.<br /><br />lukebarneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03245704613008522157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-49610668509395010022016-02-15T17:32:21.783-05:002016-02-15T17:32:21.783-05:00And by the way, I instantly recognized that you we...And by the way, I instantly recognized that you were quoting me, so my memory of that is pretty good, too. (One tipoff was the line "And it is relatively easy to create false memories through a variety of techniques" which was clearly inappropriate in the context.)Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-53931284476619919272016-02-15T17:30:47.564-05:002016-02-15T17:30:47.564-05:00True enough. But you know what? My memory is act...True enough. But you know what? <i>My</i> memory is actually pretty good. For example, I recently recalled the events of a baseball game I witnessed in 1967, and then I checked my memory by going to a contemporary newspaper account of the game. And my memory was right in nearly every respect.<br /><br />So when my memory is strong, I tend to be right. When it is weak, I say so (as in, for example, my memory of the question I asked).<br /><br />I don't claim to be exempt from invented memories, but I can say that in the one chance I had to check, I was nearly completely correct.Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-73613036298926657312016-02-15T17:12:53.059-05:002016-02-15T17:12:53.059-05:00We know that human memory is extremely malleable a...We know that human memory is extremely malleable and unreliable, even just a few years after major events. And it is relatively easy to create false memories through a variety of techniques. Humans are just not good reporters of events that they witness, especially after a long period of time has gone by. There is a huge literature on this.lukebarneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03245704613008522157noreply@blogger.com