tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post8297160107196927592..comments2023-12-21T06:35:36.624-05:00Comments on Recursivity: I'm Really, Really Glad That Alva B. Weir Isn't My PhysicianUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-62560517881167236362013-02-27T08:25:14.086-05:002013-02-27T08:25:14.086-05:00I'll just finish by saying that the refusal an...I'll just finish by saying that the refusal and/or inability of Christians like Dr. Weir to honestly confront serious and troubling questions about the faith is one important reason why I and many people like me have left the church.Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-5579975579477729122013-02-27T07:23:46.959-05:002013-02-27T07:23:46.959-05:00I do appreciate your great intellect, Jeffrey. I h...I do appreciate your great intellect, Jeffrey. I honestly do wish you a full and meaningful life. Goodbyeal weirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-63696141423621058042013-02-27T03:14:17.929-05:002013-02-27T03:14:17.929-05:00I will leave our conversation by accepting our mut...<i>I will leave our conversation by accepting our mutual lack of understanding.</i><br /><br />Please do not speak for me. I was raised as a Christian and I understand your position; I simply find it is not based on evidence. If you are god-soaked and surrounded by other god-soaked people that rarely challenge your beliefs, you cannot break out of your prison very easily. <br /><br /><i>If you are correct, not much in our words matter, anyway, at least not for long.</i><br /><br />Define "matter". On the contrary, if one leaves behind a body of work, or raises children, then effects can continue for many years. But why does it bother you so much that this might not happen? You were not alive for 4.6 billion years before you were born. Why doesn't that bother you?<br /><br /><i>I am quite at peace with the truth of life as I see it.</i><br /><br />Of course you are. That's why noted evangelical Mark Noll wrote, "The scandal of the evangelical mind is that there is not much of an evangelical mind."Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-32069803416519565252013-02-26T22:23:17.787-05:002013-02-26T22:23:17.787-05:00I will leave our conversation by accepting our mut...I will leave our conversation by accepting our mutual lack of understanding. I hope your way of thinking brings you a worthwhile life. If you are correct, not much in our words matter, anyway, at least not for long. I am quite at peace with the truth of life as I see it. I do wish you well. <br />al weirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-74893561609396185672013-02-26T04:01:59.136-05:002013-02-26T04:01:59.136-05:00Well, then, I guess we haven't made any progre...Well, then, I guess we haven't made any progress, because this was all explained to you years ago (see all the comments above). But then it's hard to convince someone of something when their whole world view depends on them not understanding it. <br /> <br />I would think the fact that the study that originally motivated the post gives evidence that religious physicians do *not*, in general, treat the underserved more, would force you to re-examine your assumptions. But then I am always mystified about how theists justify their beliefs.<br /><br />Even if the Christian god exists, that alone does not provide a "rational basis" for social conscience, since there is no 'rational' reason why one would be logically obligated to follow any commandment of such a god - especially considering Yahweh's bloodthirsty record. And if one's social conscience comes from threats of what will happen in an afterlife, that is not based on some fundamental principle, but on coercion.Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-69357831265065751262013-02-25T21:17:01.799-05:002013-02-25T21:17:01.799-05:00I never meant to say that non believers did not ha...I never meant to say that non believers did not have a social conscience. Obviously I communicated poorly. What I meant to say is that I could not understand how that social conscience could be rationally explained within an atheistic world view. I acknowledge the sincere sacrficial service for the weak by those who believe in no God. I just don't understand where it comes from. If life is guided by an eternal God who offers, through his sacrificia love, eternal life free from our present sufferings, then his love for humans motivates me to love them as well. As William Sloan Coffin put it in his commencement address to Willamette University, "God's love does not seek value, it creates it. It is not because we have value that we are loved, it is because we are loved that we have value." I can understand the great value Christians place in even the most broken and disabled individuals based on this presumption. I simply don't understabnd the rational basis for serving the weak who are not your own if you believe there is no God. But there is much in life that I don't understand. I am a cancer doctor, not a theologin or a philosopher.<br />Al Weirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-12893112141415719222013-02-25T08:28:06.943-05:002013-02-25T08:28:06.943-05:00I certainly accept the observation that chimpanzee...<i>I certainly accept the observation that chimpanzees take care of their own. </i><br /><br />So, in that case, you refute your own suggestion that non-believers cannot legitimately have a social conscience. That seems like progress to me.Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-5705893485703559982013-02-24T19:45:58.673-05:002013-02-24T19:45:58.673-05:00Jeffrey,
I certainly accept the observation that c...Jeffrey,<br />I certainly accept the observation that chimpanzees take care of their own. Whether that concern for each other comes from genetic sequences evolved by chance or was placed in their genes by the Creator is a theoretical question.<br />I am confident in the Creator's influence based on many levels of evidence that would require more than my two fingers to type. I would be happy to talk with you anytime for a significant conversation. I do wish you well.al weirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-31321751641995177382013-02-24T16:37:52.101-05:002013-02-24T16:37:52.101-05:00Dr. Weir: May I suggest you read the work of prim...Dr. Weir: May I suggest you read the work of primatologist Frans de Waal? His work strongly suggests that altruistic behavior is present in our chimpanzee cousins. So it is not some magical gift from supernatural beings, but simply part of our evolved nature. Atheists as well as theists do good deeds for their neighbors.Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-28176933225174103352013-02-24T16:28:16.987-05:002013-02-24T16:28:16.987-05:00Shame on you for your Unprofessional conduct
And ...<i>Shame on you for your Unprofessional conduct</i><br /><br />And what conduct would that be?Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-25123639702069206812013-02-24T14:22:23.400-05:002013-02-24T14:22:23.400-05:00No..Shame on you for your Unprofessional conduct. ...No..Shame on you for your Unprofessional conduct. Stick to healing crystals, magnets & leg-lengthening, Jeffrey..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-62728994317453283502013-02-24T09:21:30.218-05:002013-02-24T09:21:30.218-05:00Great to hear from you again, Jeffrey. I hope your...Great to hear from you again, Jeffrey. I hope your life has been filled with joy since we last wrote. Looking back on all the conversations, I would have to agree that my lack of understanding of the motivations behind atheistic altuism, does not mean I can claim it is false. I apologize if my words suggested that. I can only speak to my own motivation in serving those who suffer. I serve them out of love that I learned from the Creator of the Universe who first loved me. I wish you well and pray to my Creator that you continue to serve those who suffer in a way that brings both them and you the joy that God intendedAl Weirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-73479256005240554502013-02-24T07:48:13.509-05:002013-02-24T07:48:13.509-05:00Shame on you!
For what, exactly? For pointing ou...<i>Shame on you!</i><br /><br />For what, exactly? For pointing out that Dr. Weir's views are biased against nonbelievers?Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-91044485155776649192013-02-24T06:39:33.917-05:002013-02-24T06:39:33.917-05:00Googling my old friend Al Weir tonight brought me ...Googling my old friend Al Weir tonight brought me to your "so called" blog. FYI, any of you would be lucky to have Dr. Weir as your Oncologist. Phi Beta Kappa, Alpha Omega Alpha, Ranked number 1 in his class, Board Certified in Internal Medicine, Medical Oncology & Hematology. AND one of the most compassionate MDs I have had the pleasure to work beside. Shame on you!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-65112755957402704502008-12-01T03:57:00.000-05:002008-12-01T03:57:00.000-05:00Is it your contention that religious beliefs are e...Is it your contention that religious beliefs are exempt from criticism?Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-17752318963266488962008-12-01T00:24:00.001-05:002008-12-01T00:24:00.001-05:00Wow, is this just a game of, Good ol' religious ba...Wow, is this just a game of, Good ol' religious bashing? This probably won't get onto the page, seeing as it's censored to allow only people that will be in hell soon enough, but as it is i will continue. We were put on this Earth by our Creator to glorify Him. Showing compassion and loving your brother was how we were designed.Aarronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15506719093987544868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-35179375239621590812008-02-11T13:50:00.000-05:002008-02-11T13:50:00.000-05:00Jeffrey,If you have completed answering my questio...Jeffrey,<BR/>If you have completed answering my questions and I am not satisfied, it may well be my problem with comprehension. I will shut up and disappear. Some of you certainly feel that this would be appropriate. Thank you again for the conversation. May the God I know be good to all of you.<BR/>Alweirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12396806295908478005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-22110349568904085382008-02-11T11:36:00.000-05:002008-02-11T11:36:00.000-05:00Dr. Weir:Both I (in e-mail) and the commenters hav...Dr. Weir:<BR/><BR/>Both I (in e-mail) and the commenters have answered your question in detail. Why you continue to demand answers to questions that have already been answered is a mystery to me, but I suspect it has something to do with the fingers firmly placed in each ear. Remove them, and you might understand.Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-7901614457429536562008-02-11T08:29:00.000-05:002008-02-11T08:29:00.000-05:00Erdos,I am sorry, but in your reply, I see no evid...Erdos,<BR/>I am sorry, but in your reply, I see no evidence that you are answering my question. I know that people who believe there is no God do care for the suffering in self-sacrificial ways. I suspect that you do as well. What is your logic for doing so? Please teach me as you insult me.<BR/>Thanks,<BR/>Alweirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12396806295908478005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-84778937646582344892008-02-11T05:45:00.000-05:002008-02-11T05:45:00.000-05:00Dr. Weir's try at humility is admirable but betray...Dr. Weir's try at humility is admirable but betrays his original provocative claim. If he truly was humble he would have never written the original letter nor would he persist with his vague meanderings that he just doesn't get it. After all, any principled approach to understanding the original outcome (that physician's don't provide uncompensated services based purely on faith) would have required the basic decency of asking the question of why, rather than assuming cultural forces that are neither demonstrable nor plausible.<BR/><BR/>If he is as poor an oncologist facing data as he is a philosopher of science, then Jeffrey's original fear of him as a physician is more than justified.Erdos56https://www.blogger.com/profile/04426474525236405685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-82902560385006391002008-02-06T09:18:00.000-05:002008-02-06T09:18:00.000-05:00Eamon,I appreciate your comments and the reasoning...Eamon,<BR/>I appreciate your comments and the reasoning behind it. I admit that I am simply a doctor educated in medical sciences and not in phiosophy, but somehow feel that even you avoid the issues of First Things. <BR/>The best I can get from each of your answers is that we are genetically hardwired as social creatures that respond to each other emotionally with compassion. <BR/>I do not understand why this fulfills a natural selection purpose or why this would develop through purposeless genetic mutations without an inalienable value placed in us to which we respond. I do not understand why this would give courage to many atheists who indeed serve others at their on risk and cost---but there is much of life that I do not understand. My assumption is that this is as far as one can get through reason in a life without an outside Value Giver and Purpose Giver.<BR/>I suspect you all have done your best to educate me and that my intellectual inadequacies keep me from a full understanding and acceptance of your theories. I thank you for trying.<BR/>Alweirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12396806295908478005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-25841765280976785382008-02-05T23:57:00.000-05:002008-02-05T23:57:00.000-05:00Several people have given excellent answers alread...Several people have given excellent answers already, but I think we're still failing to address a central fallacy in Dr. Weir's thinking:<BR/><BR/><I>"Where within the atheist system does that desire to serve the poor come from?" Where, logically, within the atheist system, does sacrificial service for people whom you do not know come from?</I><BR/><BR/>This contains an implicit assumption that moral or altruistic behaviour can only arise from some rational "system" of ethics (religious or philosophical). I am far from an expert in this area, but from what I have read, moral behaviour (good or bad) is in fact largely emotionally driven, then rationalized <I>post facto</I> by appeal to some moral system or authority.<BR/><BR/>I also have to challenge this statement:<BR/><I>has picked up that character trait from a secular world that says "me first".</I><BR/><BR/>This is just the standard fundamentalist bogeyman of "the secular world" (I know what I'm talking about, I used to be there) In my view, there is no "secular world" (that is a myth used to encourage Christian in-group cohesion), there is just "the world" -- a place chock full of humans with all sorts of beliefs, held with the full range of intensities, and practiced in all sorts of ways. And we are all (Christians included) members of it. Furthermore, it is not primarily "the world" that says "me first", it is human nature which says that -- it's part of our psychology. But fortunately, so are compassion, love, and an instinctive understanding of reciprocity. We each, no doubt, have our own individual mix of those traits. What the cited study seems to say is that, however that "mix" is set up, it is resistant to change by (and largely independent of) religious belief and instruction.Eamon Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04262012749524758120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-78405151554457959862008-02-05T03:20:00.000-05:002008-02-05T03:20:00.000-05:00Dr. Weir's quote:My question to atheists, which on...Dr. Weir's quote:<BR/><BR/><I>My question to atheists, which only Jon has attempted to answer is this, "Where within the atheist system does that desire to serve the poor come from?"</I><BR/><BR/>demonstrates his continued failure to read carefully and critically. Both John McKenzie and I discuss ways in which Dr. Weir's claim might be untrue. First, we have good reasons for suspecting people are, like primates, social animals and use reciprocal altruism and other mechanisms as a "proximal" channel to achieving greater good, distributed among the entire social group.<BR/><BR/>For me, though, I think I am most offended by the failure of people like Dr. Weir to recognize the pure humanity of others, and the amazing emergent qualities that make us distinctive and unique, while sharing so much with our primate heritage.<BR/><BR/>We serve others and the poor because they cry and suffer and because we don't like to cry and suffer. We create art and music because we are aesthetic strivers. Understanding the likely biological mechanisms driving those properties is interesting, but is just an add-on to the brilliant humanism that is inherent in all of us.Erdos56https://www.blogger.com/profile/04426474525236405685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-46756222809986999812008-02-04T19:07:00.000-05:002008-02-04T19:07:00.000-05:00To Doctor Weir:Perhaps this may shed some light on...To Doctor Weir:<BR/><BR/>Perhaps this may shed some light on your question. There have been studies conducted on animals (namely monkeys) where certain brain cells called 'mirror neurons' fire when one creature watches another creature perform actions. Scientists feel that something similar can be found in human brains. It is said these brain cells simulate what other creatures feel when observed, which gives a biological concept as to why animals and humans help each other. <BR/><BR/>I hope this have been of some help.<BR/><BR/>For more information you can refer to the following links:<BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Neurological_basis<BR/>and <BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuronAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-71296310362925345792008-02-03T08:51:00.000-05:002008-02-03T08:51:00.000-05:00Paul,I admire your son and wish all doctors, Chris...Paul,<BR/>I admire your son and wish all doctors, Christian or not, would emulate his care for the underserved.I would never claim that one has to belive in God to serve others. That is simply not the truth of life. My claim is that one cannot avoid serving the underserved and be true to the mandates of the Scirpture. If a person of faith does not serve the poor in some way with his/her life, he/she is either ignorant of the Scripure or has picked up that character trait from a secular world that says "me first". The corrolary of that, "all secular people do not serve the poor" is absloutely not true, as eveidenced by your son. <BR/>My question to atheists, which only Jon has attempted to answer is this, "Where within the atheist system does that desire to serve the poor come from?" Where, logically, within the atheist system, does sacrificial service for people whom you do not know come from?<BR/>I would love to meet your son and hold him up as a model for many people of faith who do not yet "get it."weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12396806295908478005noreply@blogger.com