tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post952904168865532006..comments2023-12-21T06:35:36.624-05:00Comments on Recursivity: Do Asthmatics Really Sneeze at Plastic Flowers?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-17091978506674665352010-11-05T07:27:49.230-04:002010-11-05T07:27:49.230-04:00I have also asthma and I have sneezing problem...I have also asthma and I have sneezing problem...sneezing diseasehttp://www.genericlook.com/diseases/Sneezing/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-54294407617760611742010-05-10T04:24:38.243-04:002010-05-10T04:24:38.243-04:00meh. patients feel better after taking a placebo;...meh. patients feel better after taking a placebo; it doesn't mean that medicine isn't real or doesn't work. even supposing it were true, why should asthmatics reacting to plastic flowers prove anything other than the fact that the placebo effect is real?andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06240845688616411868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-17123541861312617282010-05-08T22:00:22.367-04:002010-05-08T22:00:22.367-04:00A more basic question would be what is *sneezing* ...A more basic question would be what is *sneezing* supposed to have to do with **Asthma**??<br /><br />However, why shouldn't a sociogenic cue trigger a physiological response? Not saying I'm buying the claim, only that sociogenic illnesses can have real physiological symptoms.Scotenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-81772930564984044302010-05-07T01:21:05.607-04:002010-05-07T01:21:05.607-04:00Ah! Alexander, you are of course correct, but for ...Ah! Alexander, you are of course correct, but for as long as I've had a concept of the mind-body problem (long before I knew it had a name), I've been a strict physicalist; basically, for as long as I can remember.<br /><br />I was raised in christian science, which I always interpreted as a strict-spiritualist view (though my parents disagree) and it always felt like nonsense: their concept of god is so abstract, it was easier for my child-brain to understand the world in purely physical terms and just imagine that they were pretending because they thought it'd make me feel better. After all, the physical aspects of reality seemed obvious, and the alleged mental aspects appeared nebulous, elusive, unreliable, and frankly, susceptible to self-deception.<br /><br />As a result, I struggle to remember that the vast majority of people are dualists, and so I typically overlook their point of view completely. (This is in addition to rejecting their viewpoint as unfounded when I do consider it.)<br /><br />But yes, I do agree, a dualist does have that out. (And likewise a spiritualist has an even bigger out, potentially claiming the whole notion of heads and bashing are merely illusory.)<br /><br />To reference Grayling again, I think in the same debate he defines the word rationality as proportioning the strength of belief in a proposition to the evidence. In which case, I would argue it is very rational to believe in physical events, but not very rational to believe strongly in an immaterial/mental/spiritual aspect.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13091819892443159832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-43770862612455012662010-05-06T18:19:35.997-04:002010-05-06T18:19:35.997-04:00I don't have any references, but personal expe...I don't have any references, but personal experience. I had extremely serious asthma as a child - i.e. couldn't run more than 3 meters without having an attack, very sensitive to particulate matter in the air.<br /><br />I can tell you right away that the whole idea sounds to me like a 'crock of shit' (pardon the expression).<br /><br />Whenever there were particles in the air that triggered my asthma, I would have trouble breathing, cough, weezing. Sneezing was seldom a problem.<br /><br />As for plastic, some plastics release an odour when new. These usually triggered a minor effect. Plastics with no odour did not. To give you an idea of how sensitive I was to these things, if a candle was lit for a few minutes across the house without my knowledge of it, I would start have trouble breathing. Same reaction with perfumes, flower odours, cleaning products and small amounts of dust.Philnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-85074204450716745882010-05-06T17:30:21.897-04:002010-05-06T17:30:21.897-04:00I assume that otherwise informed people believe th...I assume that otherwise informed people believe the claim and pass it on without checking because it's very similar to many better-documented similarly striking cases of placebo and nocebo effects. As for unsophisticated dualists, that's just a silly jump to conclusions. I think Denyse O'Leary made the same "inference" from experiments showing that conscious effort affects neural activity (I believe the subjects were OCD patients). Since physicalists typically believe that mental states supervene on brain states (i.e. mental states change if and only if brain states change), they can accommodate these experimental results without any worries at all. But what do you expect from fuzzy-thinking dualists?<br /><br />cody: on behalf of the dualist, one can always say that the headbashing experiment only shows that brains are necessary for minds*. It doesn't show that brains are sufficient for minds. Dualists are committed to denying the second proposition, but may endorse the first.<br /><br />*That should actually be "minds that are causally interacting with the physical world"Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01908428123363294967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-42782949947781538672010-05-06T15:46:32.548-04:002010-05-06T15:46:32.548-04:00Podger:
It'd be nice if you gave a full refer...Podger:<br /><br />It'd be nice if you gave a full reference to the journal or book where this study appeared.<br /><br />It appears to be this one: Barsky, A.J., Saintfort, R., Rogers, M.P. & Borus, J.F., "Nonspecific Medication Side Effects and the Nocebo Phenomenon", Journal of the American Medical Association, Vol.287, No.5, (6 February 2002), pp.622-627.Jeffrey Shallithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763971505497961430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-48766749918879968862010-05-06T14:36:22.676-04:002010-05-06T14:36:22.676-04:00It is hard to say how much the mind controls. In ...It is hard to say how much the mind controls. In regards specifically to asthma, the brain can cause an attack to occur.<br /><br /><i>"In one experiment, asthmatic patients breathed in a vapor that researchers told them was a chemical irritant or allergen. Nearly half of the patients experienced breathing problems, with a dozen developing full-blown attacks. They were “treated” with a substance they believed to be a bronchodilating medicine, and recovered immediately. In actuality, both the “irritant” and the “medicine” were a nebulized saltwater solution."</i><br />Nonspecific Medication Side Effects and the Nocebo Phenomenon<br /><br />But an asthmatic seeing a plastic flower and sneezing would be the same (I have no evidence of this occurring) as a dog hearing a bell and drooling. I don't understand how it supports the idea of an immaterial mind.Podgernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-11965670132888912532010-05-06T13:15:57.973-04:002010-05-06T13:15:57.973-04:00There are good reasons to be suspicious at the ane...There are good reasons to be suspicious at the anecdotal evidence that asthmatic people sneeze upon seeing dust.<br /><br />I imagine that the air around visible patches of dust is quite likely to be unusually dusty.James Cranchhttp://www.srcf.ucam.org/~jdc41noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20067416.post-64627032840589960962010-05-06T12:28:18.052-04:002010-05-06T12:28:18.052-04:00There is a great debate with AC Grayling and Richa...There is a great debate with AC Grayling and Richard Dawkins (against a couple of religious twits I have forgotten), in which Grayling says:<br /><br />"If you want to investigate the relationship of consciousness to matter, and in particular the brain, just take a heavy blunt instrument and bash yourself over the head and see which bits of thinking you can no longer do."<br /><br />I think that is all the response we really need to give to the "immaterial mind" crowd.codyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11407919985914326282noreply@blogger.com